Jeffrey Goldberg: President Trump responds to the Republican wipeout this week by appointing his most controversial aide, Stephen Miller, as the next White House Chief of Staff.

Trump, with the hardline Miller at his side, is signaling to the world that he's doubling down on the MAGA agenda and has no intention of fading away, next.

Good evening, and welcome to Washington Week.

So, we're living in a new country tonight, one in which Kansas is going to have a Democratic senator, one in which even the ultimate survivor, Susan Collins, couldn't survive, one in which the state government of Texas will be under complete Democratic control, making it no different, in this respect, than Massachusetts.

We are also living in a world in which the ultimate immigration hardliner, Stephen Miller, will be running the White House.

I, for one, would love to be a witness to his first meeting with Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, which could also be their last meeting.

Miller's appointment is a reminder that Donald Trump remains the nation's chief executive for another two years, and matters of, among other things, war and peace are still in his hands.

Joining me tonight to make sense of this historic week, Peter Baker is the chief White House correspondent for The New York Times, Leigh Ann Caldwell is the Chief Washington Correspondent at Puck, Adam Harris co-hosts Radio Atlantic, the flagship Atlantic magazine podcast, and Stephen Hayes is the Editor of The Dispatch.

So, yes, that happened.

What do the kids say?

That happened.

That -- everything happened.

It's a very big week, and it -- a week that ends in a unusual bang, I would say.

Here, just before we talk about it, here's Donald Trump on this announcement.

Donald Trump, U.S.

President: I wanted to make a change.

I think Susie's done a very good job, great job, but I just wanted to make a -- Stephen's been great, and we got to make moves.

Stephen's been with me from beginning.

He gets it, very good politically.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Peter what are we to make of this appointment, Stephen Miller as Chief of Staff?

Peter Baker, Chief White House Correspondent, The New York Times: Well, look, to the extent that there was any question about whether the president would respond to a drubbing of his own party with conciliation or confrontation, there's no longer a question, right?

And the answer is not conciliation.

Stephen Miller is not the person you would pick for chief of staff if you actually wanted to -- Jeffrey Goldberg: Was that ever actually more than a rhetorical question?

Peter Baker: Look, on election night, he makes these noises.

He told my colleagues, Tyler Pager and Erica Green, I can work with Democrats, and so forth.

He does that from time to time.

He doesn't really mean it probably, doesn't follow through on it, and clearly in this case, he's not going to follow through because you wouldn't pick Stephen Miller if you really thought you were going to negotiate with Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer.

To your point, I think that -- just to remind our viewers that Miller is the architect of the mass deportation strategy.

He thought that they were too soft in Minnesota, not the other way around.

He is the architect of basically every other hardline policy that the president has put in place.

And so he is the bete noire of the entire new Democratic majorities in both Congress.

They're not going to want to work with him, even if for some reason he were to want to work with them.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Susie, Miller's getting blamed, it seems for losing.

Adam Harris, Host, Radio Atlantic: I mean, well, it seems like what's happening here, right, is you've seen people like J.D.

Vance sort of start to walk away from some of the policies that the president has espoused over the last couple years, whether that's the Iran war or things of the sort.

And Stephen Miller has been one of those people who is a -- like you said, Peter, right, he's a hardliner.

He has been around the president for the entire time.

He seems as if he's a true believer in the sort of policies, the sort of MAGA policies that the administration has put forward.

And so when you're sort of backed into a corner, when your party is not being successful, when you've seen a big repudiation of the party, then it makes sense that you go with somebody who actually believes in what you believe.

Jeffrey Goldberg: It seems like Susie Wiles' exile is not a full exile.

It wasn't the kick them to the curb kind of tweet that other people have ended their careers with.

Is that fair?

Leigh Ann Caldwell, Chief Washington Correspondent, Puck: Yes, it's, I mean, she's apparently going to his political operation.

We'll see what that looks like.

That's also where Karoline Leavitt is.

That's also where James Blair is.

You know, it's kind of where the people who leave the White House end up, with a paycheck.

Stephen Hayes, Editor, The Dispatch: Spending more time with her family.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Is it like an island?

Is it like a little island or something?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: There's like a shadow White House that builds outside the White House.

We'll see how much influence Susie Wiles has moving forward.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: You know, probably very little.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, Steve, this is what I wanted to ask about young Stephen, the protege of the president.

Trump said he's very good politically.

What does that mean?

Stephen Hayes: Yes, I mean, it's unclear what it means.

He also said he's a very good manager.

There are a lot of stories that he's actually not a very good manager.

He's not very good politically.

He pushed some of the ideas that were proved the most toxic for Republicans in this election cycle.

He's also somebody who pushed suspending habeas corpus.

After several months in office, he wanted the president to suspend habeas corpus, something that was too much even for some of the other hard- hardliners at the White House.

Ultimately, it didn't happen.

John Yoo, a very conservative constitutional lawyer, told my colleague, John McCormick, that it would have led to a constitutional crisis had it actually happened.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Is he -- this is a question for anyone.

Is he the most hardline person Donald Trump has in his close orbit?

Adam Harris: That's a contest, man.

Well, I think it probably between him and Pete Hegseth, where Pete Hegseth may be a little bit more fealty to the president as opposed to sort of an ideological vision of the MAGA project.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Adam Harris: But in terms of people who are really trying to push policies that are outside of the Constitution, like you said, things like suspending habeas corpus, where it's these would be unconstitutional policies, but they are willing to try them in means through executive orders and then ask for the legal -- Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

I mean, you could make the argument that the Hegseth-ordered boat strikes in the Caribbean are extra-constitutional.

Peter Baker: Yes.

That's one of the things they would impeach him on if they impeach him.

It's -- the argument is he has illegally used American power against people without due process.

But Miller, to point about politically good, what he might mean is he's politically good inside that White House.

He has, for ten years, managed to survive all the different purges, all the different ups and downs.

He got close to Jared Kushner, the son-in-law, and Ivanka Trump, the daughter, even though they're not, you know, as hardcore as he is.

He's been a very clever person to make - - you know, to survive inside a very toxic environment for a long time, and the president sees him as absolutely loyal.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: But when it comes to the politics of it, though, we're talking, you know, confrontation with Congress, and we're talking about Democrats who are going to be in control.

But I've talked to a lot of Republicans tonight in Congress, senior aides who are concerned about this.

I am told that senators went to the bat for Susie Wiles, that they -- wanted her to stay.

And that the -- while the party is trying to figure out what it looks like, Donald Trump is going to be in the White House while these Republicans are trying to figure out, you know, they're going to have to run again in two years.

Some of them are going to run statewide again, or maybe for the first time.

And the signals that Donald Trump is sending with Stephen Miller is no introspection of what just happened on Tuesday, where the rest of the Congress that was decimated for Republicans are trying to grapple with how to move forward.

Jeffrey Goldberg: No, it's not as if Donald Trump listened to the voice of the American people and internalized it and then said, you know, the answer is Stephen Miller.

No, the answer for Stephen Miller is pure MAGA to the finish line.

Stephen Hayes: Pure MAGA.

Yes, look, I think we're seeing YOLO Trump right now, and I think there were indications that this was coming before the election.

We saw him, in effect, say, yes, you know what?

I've always wanted to embrace Vladimir Putin.

I'm doing it now, lifting the sanctions.

He's coming to the G20.

I want to do these things.

You saw it with the golf course.

I want to build the golf course.

I don't really care what the court says.

I mean, it's not like -- Jeffrey Goldberg: So, you're saying that in the last quarter of the Trump interrupted presidency, the last two years, we're going to see the honest, quote/unquote, vision of what he actually wants.

Stephen Hayes: Pure, hardcore, undiluted MAGA with Stephen Miller.

It also comes at a time, we should point out, that the president seems to be willing to check out a bit more and not really as focused on governing the country, talking about, you know, the helipad and the ballroom.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Well, let me play you something.

This is from Wednesday.

I thought this was fairly remarkable.

This is the president the day after the election.

Listen.

Donald Trump: The kitchen is underneath because if I put the kitchen on top -- we have large staircases coming from the kitchen.

If I put the kitchen on top, you would lose three walls, because the kitchen takes about 30 percent of the space.

So, the kitchen is all the space that you have right underneath, and it's going to be top of the line.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Interestingly, we had the same problem in our house.

We used the sliding doors to get to the kitchen to the dining room.

And if anybody's looking for advice at the White House I'm here.

But what struck me, Leigh Ann, is that, I couldn't understand, was this his way of trying to deflect from Tuesday?

Did he not fully understand what just happened to him and to the party he ostensibly leads on Tuesday?

Does he not care and is this -- going to Steve's point, this is what he cares about.

What was going on there?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I mean, I think that this is his happy space.

This is where he's most comfortable.

When you have a bad day, you do what makes you feel good, and I think going to visit a construction site is exactly what that is for Donald Trump, you know?

But the fact -- it was also very telling, it was odd that that's what he's talking about the day after the election, but it's telling.

The fact that he was so intricately aware of the details of what walls would have to be moved, of where the kitchen is, shows what he has been focused on when, you know, the party was hoping he would be focused on winning.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes, right.

Adam Harris: And on top of the fact that he was at the Reflecting Pool on Monday talking -- like the idea that he was not focused on the issues that the rest of the country cared about.

He wasn't focused on affordability.

He wasn't focused on ending the war in Iran because he has these pet projects.

Peter Baker: After Bush loses the Congress in '06, he comes out and says it was a thumping.

He acknowledges the defeat.

After 2010, when Obama loses the Congress, or the House he says it was a shellacking.

He acknowledges the defeat.

You heard nothing like that from Trump this week.

In fact, the clip you played is him at his most engaged, at his most energetic.

He gave a speech tonight in Florida.

He was very flat, about space policy, barely acknowledged there was an election.

He seems a little dazed, a little confused, uncertain about what this means.

He may have actually fooled himself into thinking that the polls were all fake, as he told us, and maybe he didn't expect it to be as bad as it was.

But he hasn't yet found his footing.

Jeffrey Goldberg: So, what does he do for the next two years of his presidency, apart from worrying about where the kitchen walls are in the ballroom kitchen?

I mean, this is the biggest subject of all, A, what he wants to do with his remaining two years.

He still runs the executive branch.

He's still the commander-in-chief.

And what do the Democrats who are going to run in Congress do to contain -- let's say that we're - - you're all correct, and that Miller is this concentrated version of MAGA.

What do -- how did, what power do they have to contain that?

Stephen Hayes: I mean, not much.

I mean, we all expect that they're going to launch a number of investigations or maybe an impeachment effort related to Pete Hegseth.

I would imagine there would be an impeachment effort with the new Congress on President Trump.

I think the question about the president is does he sort of continue to check out and sort of back out and turn the White House over to Stephen Miller?

I don't think that's inconceivable.

He doesn't seem to be engaged in the job anyway.

We all know that there are many aspects of the job he didn't like.

He would rather watch commentary on Fox News than participate in some of the cabinet meetings, some of the things that you do as president.

It seems to me entirely possible that he just steps further back and Stephen Miller steps into the void.

Jeffrey Goldberg: And where does J.D.

Vance fit into that formula?

Stephen Hayes: He's going to be tweeting.

Jeffrey Goldberg: He's going to be posting tweets?

Stephen Hayes: Long posting on Twitter analysis, pundit.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Leigh Ann, talk a little bit about the Democrat -- I mean, first of all, should we, is it safe to assume at this table tonight, that Hakeem Jeffries is fine?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes.

Jeffrey Goldberg: And that Chuck Schumer is fine?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Okay.

So, Jeffries and Schumer, what do they -- what power do they have to contain?

What power do they not have?

What is their strategy going forward?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: So, it's going to be really interesting to watch.

If you remember back in Trump 1.0, there were all these meetings with Pelosi and Schumer in the Oval, and there was a lot of theatrics, attempts to try to do something with Congress.

I don't know if there's going to be any of that.

I think that the president is going to dictate a lot of that, not necessarily based on how engaged he wants to be.

He didn't care about Congress when his party was in charge.

After they passed the one big, beautiful bill, he said, we have done everything we need to do legislatively.

And so I expect the president to continue to govern from the executive branch, focused on his things and what the Democratic leaders are going to do.

They're going to try to pass bill after bill after bill that addresses the issues that they think people care about regarding healthcare, housing, affordability, tariffs, ending the Iran war.

And we'll see where it goes and what the president does with it if it reaches his desk.

Then there's the whole investigative side of it as well, and the challenge for Democrats is, do you investigate without that overtaking the entire narrative, which is what the leaders do not want.

But, you know, we know the Democratic Party.

They sometimes overstep.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

And where are the crisis points?

In other words, now that we have Miller in charge, is it going to be immigration that causes massive confrontation between the legislative branch, Democratic-controlled legislative branch, and the executive, or are there other issues that I'm not thinking of?

Adam Harris: I think immigration, I think the war in Iran, right?

For the last eight months, people have been asking, what can Congress actually do to stop this war, right, been calling it an illegal war.

How do you actually contain that, so legislation there to attempt to contain the war.

I think if you look at ICE and the ways that the president is trying to utilize ICE or the way that they're trying to utilize the National Guard in cities across the nation, right?

There are a lot of these really central touchpoints that we've seen over the last couple of years that have really driven people to anger, to the polls.

And there's -- I mean, on top of everything, right, some people will say it's -- it may be retribution from Democrats, but a lot of voters will say that it's accountability, right?

We are trying to hold them accountable to the Constitution.

We're trying to hold them accountable to what they're -- Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

You know, you mentioned something interesting, the National Guard.

Relatively small in the scheme of things, but Pete Hegseth has doubled down in the last couple of days in Washington, saying they're going to do now Humvee patrols and boat patrols.

Was that meant to impress Donald Trump, whose loyalty maybe he's worried about?

Was that just a manifestation of, I don't know, you're going to have to come up with a hook for this, but like pure MAGA, like this is it, like we're going to just do everything we want to do?

Adam Harris: You know, there's always probably a little bit of both with Hegseth.

The ways that if you look at the video that he released on Thursday where he was talking about, you know, the war in Iran is right because we want to make sure that they don't get a nuclear weapon when, you know, voters you know, went to the polls and said, well, my gas is expensive, because you've closed the Strait of Hormuz, or because the Strait of Hormuz is closed, right?

There is a little bit of, I'm trying to impress the president.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

But it would be dangerous for the Democrats to concede too much to Iran.

Is that fair, Peter?

Peter Baker: Yes, of course.

I mean, I think, look, Trump is going to -- he's going to, you know, rattle the saber for a while and so forth.

But in the end, I think he wants out.

I think he wants to find a way out of this thing that looks like victory, because I don't think he sees a path forward.

I don't think he loves this war at this particular point, but he doesn't want to look embarrassed, right?

J.D.

Vance gave voice to that wing of the party in his 600-word online message this week.

And Pete Hegseth's video, in some ways it was a pushback against the impeachment, but it was also a pushback against Vance.

And you see in that the beginning of the parameters of the debate of the '28 cycle, right?

What does this party stand for?

Is it a hawkish conservative party on Iran as the president has sort of positioned it to be, or is it return to the J.D.

Vance, you know, more isolationist America First?

Jeffrey Goldberg: Let's stay on this for a minute.

Is it -- J.D.

Vance is quasi isolationist.

Pete Hegseth is a classical muscular interventionist.

Where's Miller, and where's -- and where, generally speaking, is Marco Rubio?

Peter Baker: Where is Marco Rubio is a great question.

He is out -- Jeffrey Goldberg: Laying -- trying to lay low.

Peter Baker: -- of the loop every time you need to ask that question, right?

He wants nothing to do with this war.

He was more than happy to turn it over to Witkoff and Kushner in terms of the diplomacy part of it, right?

When it came time to have the ceasefire talks, it was J.D.

who was sent, not Marco Rubio.

And he has been very careful about making sure to straddle that line.

He may be the only person in this administration who's successfully, to some extent, straddled that MAGA, non-MAGA line, at least to the point he hasn't been crucified by one side or the other.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Yes, go ahead.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I was just going to say when you asked where Miller is on the war.

What's interesting is Peter's paper, The Times, they reported tonight, Maggie Haberman, that the -- one of the ways he got -- that Miller got the chief of staff job is he said that he would help the president end, wind down this war.

So, we know that Miller is focused on domestic policy.

He was also big on the boat strikes because that had to do with domestic policy.

So, I think it's a real unknown of what the future of the president's foreign policy is going to look like if Hegseth is there or not, what Miller is focused on, and where Marco Rubio is -- Jeffrey Goldberg: But should we anticipate some open fracturing among this small group, Hegseth, Vance, Rubio, in the coming year?

Is that a fair thing to worry about?

Stephen Hayes: I would think you have to.

And it's also important to point out that Stephen Miller's going to run the White House very differently stylistically than Susie Wiles did.

I mean, she was sort of a conciliator, you know, somebody who moved things around, set up meetings.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Miller tells people what to do.

Stephen Hayes: Yes, Miller says, I believe these things.

I mean, there's a long tradition of White House chiefs of staff who don't really weigh in unless they're asked, and they, you know, merely create access to the president, allow people to make their arguments.

That was -- Susie Wiles was more in line with that.

Stephen Miller, he'd never be able to do that.

He has opinions about everything, and he wants the president to know them.

Peter Baker: Remember what he said on T.V a few months ago, right?

The world is run by power.

Whoever has the power makes the decisions.

He was very open about that.

It's a very -- I mean, real politic doesn't even really begin to get at it.

It's so, you know, almost authoritarian, his outlook.

Jeffrey Goldberg: So, this is his moment.

Peter Baker: Yes.

Jeffrey Goldberg: This is his moment.

Steve, so things are objectively quite awful for the Republican Party quite obviously.

Give us your understanding of what may unfold.

Is this the end of MAGA?

Stephen Hayes: I think it has to be the end of MAGA, but it could be a very long and slow end of MAGA.

I don't expect that you'll see many Republicans here in Washington start to speak out robustly against the president.

They -- you know, you'll have moments.

You had some moments before the election.

I think you'll have more of those, people who say like we're not following you anymore.

But remember, he still has leverage because he'll be a powerful player in primaries, both at the House and Senate and for the White House.

I think where you're likely to see more Republicans speak up is in the states.

You're going to have governors.

I mean, you've already seen Ron DeSantis running to cameras in the last couple of days, sort of like who's this Donald Trump you speak of?

What?

I mean, it hasn't been that.

But, you know, he clearly is putting himself forward.

I think you're going to see other governors who have managed states maybe quietly.

Jeffrey Goldberg: It seems like Chris Christie is running for president again.

Is that fair to say?

Stephen Hayes: Chris Christie's already running.

I think we know that Ted Cruz is going to run.

Right.

I bet that Rand Paul is going to run, Brian Kemp, maybe Kevin Stitt.

Jeffrey Goldberg: So, like, literally, a ton of guys and it will be on a MAGA, non-MAGA, anti-MAGA spectrum.

Stephen Hayes: Well, J.D.

Vance -- I mean, I think the conventional wisdom has been wrong about J.D.

Vance as long as he's been vice president, that he is sort of the de facto Republican nominee in 2028.

I didn't believe that before.

I certainly don't believe that now.

And I think it's going to be a big field and a big scrappy fight.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Adam, probably a final question to you.

Was this -- what happened on Tuesday, was this a repudiation of Trump himself?

Did this represent genuine enthusiasm for the Democrats and their policies, or at least their candidates?

Or is it -- what's the mix?

Adam Harris: I think there is a mix of both.

I think it was more of a repudiation of the president and his policies, right?

If you consider the, the high prices of gas, you consider an unpopular war, right?

If you are -- if you have told voters that you are not going to start an unnecessary war, and then you go and start an unnecessary war, that is the -- you can do a one-to-one of, I have been lied to here.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Adam Harris: And this is -- I'm going to vote against that.

But then also you look at the South and a place where they tried to gerrymander people out of power.

That's a very strong message for black voters in particular in the South where you saw numbers that approached, you know, presidential numbers in a midterm.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, so many things that he did backfired, pushing Cornyn out of the Texas race, gerrymandering that didn't work.

I think he's not actually that skilled at politics sometimes, Donald Trump.

Adam Harris: Yes.

And when the base at times used to be able to be activated, right, he tried to activate the base this time around and it didn't necessarily.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

And he blamed the base.

Adam Harris: Blamed the voters.

Jeffrey Goldberg: He blamed the voters, which is not the usual playbook, but this is not a usual presidency.

We'll see in over the next couple years.

Peter Baker: He said 47 times, pretend I'm on the ballot.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Peter Baker: And then after the election, he says, I wasn't on the ballot.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Well, we'll be talking about this next week, obviously, but we're going to have to leave it there for now.

I want to thank our guests for joining me, and thank you at home for watching us.

Before we go, we want to take a moment to remember former Senator Jay Rockefeller, who has died at the age of 89.

Rockefeller, who served as governor of West Virginia before spending 30 productive years in the Senate, was a part of the Washington Week family.

His wife of 59 years, Sharon, is the president and CEO of WETA, where we produce this show.

Senator Rockefeller was a devoted public servant and a devoted watcher of this program as well.

May his memory be a blessing.

I'm Jeffrey Goldberg.

Good night from Washington.