AMNA NAWAZ: Karine Jean-Pierre has spent# most of her career as a Democrat, working on## four presidential campaigns and serving in the# Obama and Biden administrations.

But her days## as a member of the Democratic Party are over.

And# that is the focus of her new book, "Independent."

We spoke recently and I asked# her why she's leaving the party.

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, Former White# House Press Secretary: When I left## the administration on January 20 with# th.. amount of people who were coming up to me# -- and I say this in the book -- who were## very worried about the state of America# and the country and where we were going.

And my thinking was, I had thought about# becoming an independent.

I kind of laid## that out in the book.

And my thinking was, OK,# if I put out a book with a road map and really## lay out my own process and where I# am today with the party, my hope is## that it would start a conversation# that I believe is needed right now.

In this time that we're in, we need to have a# conversation about what happened in 2024.

How## do we move forward?

How do we protect# our democracy?

And there is something## fundamentally wrong with the system that we're# -- this political system.

We need a two-party## system in order to protect our democracy# and in order to exercise our democracy.

And I feel like the two-party system isn't# working and I'm not the only one.

I think## millions of people feel that way.

And we need to# have that conversation in order to move forward.

AMNA NAWAZ: You write in the book about the## chasm the Democrats allowed to grow# between them and everyday Americans,## their inadequate messaging during and# following the last presidential election.

I have to ask you, though.

You were# one of the chief messengers, right... KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: Oh, I agree.

AMNA NAWAZ: ... at the White# .. you couldn't change that messaging or influence?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: Look, the outcome# of 2024 obviously was not what we## wanted.

And I think we all have to# take accountability for it.

I even## myself -- you're right.

I was at the podium.# You were in the room at times when I was the## White House press secretary behind that# lectern pushing our message of the day.

But it was also a different -- the political# atmosphere -- and you see it even more so## today -- was really fraught.

I think you had# people who were disillusioned coming out of COVID,## trying to figure out the economy.

It's# not working for them, even though we## were trying to turn that around.

And we did.

The# president and the vice president certainly did.

But people weren't feeling that.

And we# did have a hard time communicating that## and connecting with the American people.# We would say that.

I would say that at## the podium when I was asked about polling.

And# the fact that millions of people who came and## voted for Joe Biden in 2020 and didn't do that# in 2024, we have to figure out what happened.

AMNA NAWAZ: You talk a lot about the sense of# betrayal that you felt after that June debate,## in which a lot of the party and people started to## distance themselves from President Biden# and the calls for him to step down began.

You wrote in the book: "He could have survived the# debate setback, like Barack Obama, Ronald Reagan,## other incumbent presidents overcame their own# weak first debates when they ran for reelection.## Only the Democrats, Biden's party, my party,# didn't seem to want to give him the chance."

I think it's fair to say, I mean, he# lost a lot of public confidence too## after that debate.

You really think# he could have survived after that?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: I think that people have# to understand my position at the time.

I was## dealing with the reaction of it in a way# that most people were not meaning I was## the White House press secretary and I# had to be out there.

I had to respond.

AMNA NAWAZ: Speaking for him and defending him.

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: Speaking for .. AMNA NAWAZ: Since you can speak# freely now, in the moment,## you thought this personally too,# that he could have survived it?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: Well, I felt the way he was# treated was unlike anything I had ever seen.

Objectively -- like, put my feelings aside.

Joe Biden objectively# had a successful presidential.

Joe Biden## objectively was a good human who cared about the# American people.

That's what people would say.

And yet he was treated as if# he was the worst thing ever.

AMNA NAWAZ: And yet, as a Democrat in that# moment, right, as someone who wants to see## your party win too, since then we have even# seen Vice President Harris come out and say## the decision that was left up to him and# to Dr.

Jill Biden, that it was reckless to## leave it up to them to make that call# on their own.

Do you agree with that?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: Here, again, you go# back to 2023, coming out of the midterms## that was successful for Democrats because it# wasn't a red wave, and he was an incumbent.

And at the time, no one -- no one -- when he had# to make that decision, no one was saying not to## run.

If anything, people were saying the opposite.# He should run.

He had a successful midterm.

AMNA NAWAZ: Or they're saying it's up# to him, that he will make the decision.

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: It's up to him.

But# it's up to any incumbe.. AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

KARINE JEAN-PIER.. to go back in time to the moment when# he made that decision.

It made sense.

And so I don't find it to be reckless, but what# I will say is, I agree with the vice president.## I think she should -- she has the right to# write this book and to share her thoughts.## And she was -- I think did a phenomenal job --# I say this -- as a candidate in those 107 days.

I do believe that these types -- like,# the power should not be sitting in the## White House, that the power should be# sitting in the hands of the people,## I think in this moment that we're in.# And that's what I want to make sure that## I convey.

It should not be on one person# on how the direction of our country goes.

AMNA NAWAZ: I have to ask you# too, because since the election,## you have seen all of these books and# interviews and accounts from people,## even in the inner circle who saw the president# every day, who said that they had some worries## about his age and about potential decline# and about his ability to serve a second term.

You say definitively in the book:# "I was technically a part of the## president's inner circle and saw Biden# every day and saw no such decline."

And what you are saying and what the# accounts we have seen since then do## not match up.

Both can't be true.# So how should people look at that?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: So, here's what I will# say.

And I said this at the podium and the## president said this.

He was aging.

No one# can deny that.

They could see with their own## eyes he got older.

We all get older.

He was# definitely aging.

He was in his early 80s.

So no one is denying that.

And he would say,## I don't talk as -- the way that I used# to.

I don't walk as well as I used to.## He would even make fun of himself.

And so# we always -- you can't hide that, right?

What I am saying when it# comes to his mental acuity,## when it comes to someone who understands policy# and history, and I would banter back and forth## with and answer questions that he had of# me, he was someone who was very focused,## very aware.

And you can be in a room with him for# a good amount of time and see, oh, this is the## type of president that I want in this space right# now in this moment continuing to run this country.

And that's what I saw.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, when you have accounts# from former chiefs of staff, right,## Jeff Zients and Ron Klain, who say# that they saw problems with memory## or he was out of it in debate# prep, you say what to that?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: Well, look, I# just said he was aging.

He was aging.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, there were those moments too?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: There were -- what I'm# talk.. to understand history, to understand the# policies and to speak to it.

No one is not## saying -- I mean, we saw, right, he would# forget names sometimes or we're not... he walks#differently.

No one is saying... AMNA NAWAZ: It was never enough# of a concern to you to say that## he shouldn't run again?

That's what you're saying?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: That -- well, my# whole piece of that is it really was## his decision.

And my job is -- I'm his White# House press secretary.

My job is to speak for## him and to make -- whatever decisions that# he made, was to speak on those decisions.

I truly believed this is such a personal decision# to run any election, and in this -- certainly in## this reelection.

And so, for him, I really# do believe it was his decision to make.

AMNA NAWAZ: So as an independent now, do you# ever think you have run for office yourself?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: Absolutely not.

I# think -- I talk about that in the book.

I -- look, I wrote this book not to run# for office.

I really did write the book## to truly try to meet the moment and figure# out how do we move forward in this -- in## this world that we're in.

And I do believe# for me running for office, it's -- you have## to feel it.

It has to be a calling.

And# that's not what's calling me right now.

AMNA NAWAZ: Karine Jean-Pierre.# The book is "Independent:## A Look Inside a Broken White# House, Outside Party Lines."

Great to speak with you.

Thank you for being here.

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE: Thank you,# Amna.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.